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Your FEEDBACK - Attempting to meet with Senator Hillary R. Clinton

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From: Webmaster (
Date: Mon Aug 05 2002 - 10:35:32 EDT

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Good People & People of Faith,

This message contains your FEEDBACK to our attempts to arrange a
meeting on reform with Senator Hillary R. Clinton.  We have included
incoming messages, prefaced with ">", and our responses: For
information on this ongoing event see:

--- Robert Stevens ( - Keep up the fight!

> Hooray for you!  Keep fighting!  I believe that the tide is
> beginning to turn!  Oh, it will still take years for reform,
> meaningful reform that is, to be a reality.  But it can be done. We
> can win, not just for us , or even for us , but for our children!

> Martin Luther King had a dream, well I have a dream too!  To one
> day, when I am very old, and bounce my grandchildren on my knee.  I
> will tell them stories of how men were driven out of the lives of
> their children and how they were criminalized for it.
> They, my grandchildren, will look at me, like I have two heads!
> Because by that time, this evil system will be just a bad memory.
> We will be telling our children about it , the same way I was told
> stories about drinking fountains that were labeled " white only" and
> " colored".

> This good and holy movement of ours is every bit as much a civil
> rights movement , as the work done by DR. King.  It will not be
> without cost.  It will not be without suffering and it will not be
> without lose!

> I can stand up to the pain, I can deal with lose.  I am willing to
> pay any cost.  I am ready to give myself over to it , heart and
> soul.  I can even deal with losing the " good fight", but I can not
> deal with not fighting at all!!!

> At the bottom of this email is a link " The Noncustodial Parents
> Bill of Rights" I think that you John are one of few people who will
> really appreciate it.  And fully understand the implications of it.
> Fell free to copy it and use it, for it is truly a thing of beauty
> God Bless! Keep up the GOoD Work!
> Robert R Stevens
> Lubbock TX

 Thanks for the encouraging message.  I quite agree with you
and I hope change will come quickly.  I liked what you had at your
site, but what about more detail?  Does a Judge alone decide you have
presented enough proof"rebutable presumption" or is there a unanimous
jury verdict?  Also, could you give some examples of what such conduct
would be.  I would like to share your thoughts with others on the
list.   [follow up reply from Robert below- Ed.]

> One of the basic rights, we have is the right to due process and the
> presumption of innocence.  I do believe that trial by jury is
> important, but courts and judges often ignore it.

> The Right to Remain a Parent must be made into a civil right and
> vigorously enforced.  The state family courts will resist these
> reforms, and doubtlessly will require the federal government to
> bring federal might to be bare to force the state courts to observe
> these rights.

> A jury trial is a good idea and will work.  It could eliminate a lot
> of the bias.  But for it to work, we would have to have civil
> rights that could be enforced.  The big thing is to have a set
> standards that are fair and have minimal requirements.  Jury trial
> is a form or democracy, while that is a good thing.  These jury
> members might decided to discriminate against one or more of the
> parties in the proceeding.

--- Greg ( - Arrested again?

> john --why arrested again --you doing so well !!!

John got arrested because he would rather give up his freedom than
continue to be told that he cannot meet with his representative in
Congress.  We all know that Hillary Clinton has held herself up as an
advocate for kids.  She's probably running for President.  And, she
can't at least assign a staff member to discuss a serious problem with
Kids are literally being ripped from their parents by law enforcement
personnel.  I'd say the situation is a clear and present danger to our
society. When will they act?

> wow thanks --give John my best

--- Roger Martin ( -  Wasting your time?

> I also gather that you did NOT read my response to your inquiries.
> Had you read them, you would understand why this msg [July 29th -
> First Events], in its current form, is almost "frivolous".  You also
> did NOT appreciate what my responses to you meant with regard to
> your own children.  That is okay.  Good luck with your children.

Thanks for writing me.  I'd like to somehow assure you that I am
listening, but I'm not sure exactly how.  I don't remember getting
more messages after the initial exchange back in May.
I know that many of the points you make are true.  I work with John
because I know that fighting this fight in State Court alone is only
part of the battle.  I'm a member at the CCJ:
I have been learning the law, and I hafta admit it's a long, slow
process. Everytime I'm with John, I talk about what I've learned.  He
tries to get me more involved in the church.  We are both obstinate.
You are right about him believing strongly in the goodness of people.
But you are wrong about his efforts in court.  He has almost nothing
left.  He's just like most Beat-dead Dads.  There is just no way to
mount a court battle without savvy law knowledge.  And the results are
always, getting beat down again.  They rounded up 10 Beat-dead Dads in
his adjacent county in New York.  They did it at gun-point with SWAT
style aggression.  The Civil Courts have gone over the edge on this
one, and it's not the 1st time either.  See:
So, his approach mirrors Martin Luther King's.  Use NonViolent action
as a means to get recognized.  So far, it's failed miserably.  But,
with more people, I believe it can succeed.

--- Joe M ( - A courageous act.

> Congratulation to all who had/have the courage to do what must be
> done. It is easy for all of us deprived fathers to sit back and
> silently suffer on the inside from our injuries in Family
> Court. However, that will get us nothing.  We must ban together. We
> must fight back. I am sorry I do not have the personal courage to
> risk my employment (in the legal field) and do the same.  Again,
> congratulations.

--- Loretta ( - System needs to change.

> I read and enjoyed very word that you wrote. I am also a parent that
> is told when I can see my son. He just left and will return
> tomorrow, I am use to this system but still worry sick about my son
> with his father new wife I lost custody because I stated in court
> that I did not him to have a relationship with his father. Why would
> I the man beat the hell out of me. so in best interest of the child
> he was better off with dad instead of me. I to this day regret those
> words. Great system we have. I have reasons to return to court now
> but just don't trust the justice system. Thanks so much. Loretta

 Very sorry to hear what happened!  It is amazing how just a
few words or an "attitude" can allow the system to cut you off from
your child as if they could predict the future. We have tried to base
a draft Family RIghts Act on "demonstrated conduct" -- have you proven
yourself a serious threat to the safety of your child?  I would
welcome your feedback, http://www.AKidsRight.Org/act.htm

--- From Zorro (  - Help from Canada.

> If you wish some help from north of the border you ought to provide
> name and e-mail addresses, phone and fax numbers of key people who
> can have some influence in the events.  Knowing that someone stands
> up is not enough.  Encouraging, but even if we jump up and down in
> anger, nothing will come from that.

> Please, provide follow up info if possible.
You can take a look at the web page.  It contains most of the
information you need.
John is very precisely NOT "jumping up and down in anger".  He is
practicing NonViolent Action in the same way that Martin Luther King
and Gandhi have in the past.  Although, I'll hafta admit that Violent
Action seems to be the only way one grabs an audience and holds it
these days!!!

--- Robin (   -  More people need to be involved.

>  keep up the good work---or stiff lip---anyhow, wish I could be
> there physically with you, the more there is, the better chance of
> being heard and change. I am supportively behind you, altho' my
> t-shirt would be " I am a parent" or "I love being a mom & dad" or
> something,(I'll have to make something & send the sticker for
> appropriate united expression) because the horror stories &
> alienation occur to us moms as well.  We need to set an actual date,
> that in every capitol, we gather together, with news media, to call
> attention to the abuse our current system promotes.  Stay tough,
> Robin (Winddancer)

 Thanks for the words of encouragement. We just need to
get a few more folks involved.

--- Anonymous (    -  Wrong focus.

> Why is he beating a dead horse?

> Playing a martyr does no one any good.  I have told him time and
> time again that the Feds have NOTHING to do with the issues.  They
> are all individual state issues.

> The more that John insists on trying to force something at the
> Federal level, the harder it will be to get anything done.

--- Anonymous ( -  Run a NY Times ad.

> hi, i read all the letters describing the horror of matrimonial
> court and "our" government. Put all together like that they would
> get anybody's attention, even Clinton. Let's take out an add in the
> ny times with the list.  Where do i go or what number do i call to
> get to a public event concerning Clinton and these tragedies?

--- William Kauffman (  - Correct focus?

> I wish you well on the 29th with Hillary. I wonder why you have
> chosen her to approach. I think that she is far from a friend of
> families. I believe that all her talk about children is similar to
> the family court's "for the good of the children," which is
> actually, it seems, for the good of the lawyers, the system, and the
> industry that tears apart families.  

> Of course, one never knows who or what would turn a head or make an
> ear hear. So, I truly wish you well.  I and my daughter were heavily
> involved last year with Clayton Giles' efforts. I am aware of your
> name from friends who found your website at that time.  Be well, and
> keep us posted. I can't be in Syracuse that day.

  Thanks for the regards on Senator Clinton -- it may be quite
an effort, but I think getting a meeting with her and getting her to
well define her position on the rights of parents to nurture their own
children -- and what (if any) hurdle government must cross before
being able to interfere in that relationship -- will be an important
step in getting reform on the national agenda.

--- Greg Landstrand ( - May visit.

> John, Check out the attached.( I
> listened to their radio show broadcast from NYC on July 1st and it
> was decent. Have you heard of this organization and if so, what is
> your opinion? Best of luck next Monday. Someday I will be there with
> you. 
> Gregory B. Langstrand Sr.  Lindenhurst, New York

 Yes, I have heard of them and exchanged some email with Dave,
who I think is one of the coordinators.  I like what they have to say
in there "UPREPA" and the way it well defines what equal time is.
About the only addition I would make is the protection of a jury.

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