[AKidsRight.Org] Watch "Gandhi" / Chalking & Winkler - Your FEEDBACK

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From: John Murtari (jmurtari@AKidsRight.org)
Date: Thu Oct 11 2007 - 18:24:02 EDT

Good People & People of Faith,

1. Gandhi - The Movie
2. Winkler & Brittany - What is says about us?
3. Your FEEDBACK - chalk "I Love You"
4. Your FEEDBACK - parent killer fit parent?

1. "Gandhi" - The Movie
They say a picture is worth a thousand words -- how about a movie? We
talk a lot about NonViolent Action, and many people confuse it with
letter writing or having a nice 'permitted' rally.  It is not any of
those.  http://www.AKidsRight.Org/civil_back.htm

In 1982 an excellent movie came out on Gandhi and how the Indian
people practiced NonViolent Action.  It won 8 Academy awards,
including Best Picture, Best Actor and Best Director.  I've read
several books about Gandhi's life and methods and this movie stays
very accurate to history.

As we begin to see ourselves as parents denied a very basic Civil
Right to raise our own children -- I think we will all be able to
better appreciate the struggle and conflict between the people
demanding their rights and their 'oppressors.'

I had almost forgotten about it after so many years, but my local
video store still had it as a 'classic'.  Hopefully we can all be
better followers of the method.  I was simply awed by some of the
suffering people endured for what they believed in and to achieve a
'remote' goal like national independence, what about us a parents?

2. Winkler & Brittany - What it says about us?
I've seen a lot of commentary on these two cases.  You will be able to
read some of it below.  I'm not quite sure what to make of it?  What
is says about our goals for reform?

As far as I can tell in both these stories (and also almost all of OUR
stories) -- none of these parents actually harmed their children with
malintent?  According to the standard we have at the site,
http://www.AKidsRight.Org/approach.htm -- they & WE, should be FIT &
EQUAL parents.  From the FEEDBACK spread, it would appear a jury of
parents would NOT have read a unanimous verdict of UNFIT.  Isn't that
a good thing?  Wouldn't that have been good for us and our kids?

In seems we want the Court to step in and take precautions, stop
something that might happen?  Many of us like statistics, well in 99%
of the cases, nothing bad every happens.... but I can almost guarantee
when you separate parent and child -- something very bad will happen.
We've all been through that.

If we are looking to 'play it safe' and 'give the Judge flexibility'
-- isn't that pretty much the system we have now?  Of course, they
just need a little better guidelines and training....

3. Your FEEDBACK - chalk "I Love You"
Response to http://www.AKidsRight.Org/clinton

--- paige3274@bellsouth.net

> If you built it "THEY WILL COME"....

--- Neil Pollicino <spirgroup@yahoo.com>

> I am following your situation...my thoughts are with you.

--- MARTHA HYDE <calling_for_angels@yahoo.com>

> i soooooo would love to join you!

> your chalk protests are brilliant and i am thinking about trying it
> here in Michigan.  at the cps and the foc, of course.  as with all of
> us, we fought for our beloved wee ones to the tune of bankruptcy.
> travel is out of the question--unless there is a free ride.

> how about we all organize and do a chalk protest county by
> county?????  i think this may be our front seat on the bus!

--- "David Cary" <dcary1469@aol.com>

> Just to let you know, I called Jay a couple of times. A secretary (I
> guess) answered and said Jay could not come to the phone as he was
> on another call.  I was promised he would return my call but he has
> not.

> Syracuse Local Rep, Jay Biba  tel: 315-448-0470,  fax: 315-448-0476
> Lona Valmoro (Senior Advisor) tel: 202-224-4451   fax: 202-228-0121 

--- MARY BUSCEMI <fitz62@verizon.net>

> From experience this woman is not going to answer you.  I have
> written to her several times and she has never replied.  I
> personally feel that she supports the corrupt systems of OFCS and
> DSS.  She may live in NYS and is a senator but couldn't care less.
> Try to stay out of jail.  I know that it has turned me off from you.
> Stop doing illegal things.  That is what they want.  They will use
> it against you.

I know what you mean about not getting responses when we try as
individuals.  But we may be getting closer now after a couple of
newspaper stories and serious phone calls to her offices.  If you have
time, please call her local office (the info is below).  It would be a
great help.

--- Deborah <DLP4010@aol.com>

> I have had many women say you are just for Father's Rights, but I
> continue to support you. I also left a message for you.

> This is about a "huge money making business" that Judges, attorneys,
> supervisors, physiological evaluators, all get money from the state
> for these litigious cases and from the wealthier parent also.

> stay strong and please anyone in John's area, please help in being
> there if only with your child's photo around your neck.

I don't know how many times I have said we need to be 'parents', this
is not a Mom v. Dad thing.  What amazes me is I 'catch' it from both
sides, I have dads writing in saying I am a traitor!

I know you know the difference and I think my messages have always
been clear, and certainly my actions.  Everyone wants to feel
persecuted and it is so easy to have a gender war -- I just want
another Mom & Dad to join me with their chalk.  So far I have no one.

--- "John G. Maguire" <theliberator@comcast.net>

> I also think you ought to vary your tactics.

> I admire your nerve, but you have an obligation to be in touch with
> reality and to look like you are in touch with reality.

> I suggest you take at least three months, if not six months, off
> from the Syracuse chalking thing...and consult with people and pray
> for guidance...and not waste the repute you have by going over the
> line and looking like someone without discipline.

> Your image of discipline is crucial...you must maintain it. You just
> paid with six months of your life to establish or enlarge an
> image--don't throw it away. Don't throw it away for us. It's
> something we who supported you own partially. We own part of your
> image, and you are not all by yourself here.

> Become the hero of the movement, but don't martyr yourself
> pointlessly....

I am very careful and deliberate in what I do. I try to be consistent
to effective models I have seen in the past with people following the
approach of Gandhi and King to significant social change.  Not sure if
you ever read the background material at the web site,
... Regarding staying out of jail, as you well know, I have no control
over that, because I have no rights.  My former spouse had me thrown
in jail last year on a contempt petition.  She could do the same again
any time she wants.  I do not want to face that again and face the
health risks of 'non-cooperation'.

--- Mary Dixon <sybil182@hotmail.com>

> You are so awesome , I wish I was there where you are I would
> definitely rally for this with you...I lost my five year old 8 years
> ago to cps and search for her desperately.....we will be together
> again...Thank you for everything you do.....I have so so much info
> about this to share.....

--- Sally <WWDOVEW@aol.com>

> Gosh - if I were living in the area, I would join John.  You betcha,
> I would!!

> I am a grandmother fighting Michigan to adopt my granddaughter.
> What an evil state we have....

--- Tom Miller <advoc8tomm@yahoo.com>

> I admire what you are doing and hope it will get on the news more.
> Unfortunately you are like a Jew soliciting a rabid Nazi to free you
> from the death camp.  But that is good when others see it and how
> hard her heart is and what she is really made of. Never liked her
> and those she runs with, even if you do or have.

If there was just another mother & father with me it would make a big
difference.  Hopefully more folks will be there in January.

---  ANON

> Hi John, I would be there with you if I could.  I would like to do
> something up here.  I'm thinking about going in front of the state
> house and writing a message in chalk while holding a picture of my
> kids.  What do you think?

Good to hear from you and I think it is a great idea if other people
will join you.  I would certainly announce it on our list. But... if
you do it, I think you have to be ready/proud to be arrested if
security comes out and tells you to stop.

I know about your job and the distance.  Right now I have newspaper
and TV people who will cover this next Thursday. I know they would
love to interview you and I'm almost positive even if you wrote with
chalk they would just give you a 'ticket', like they did with me the
first time.  No jail.

There is strength in numbers and you have to be very careful.  That is
why watching someone else first may help....

--- BHBryan@aol.com

> More people going to jail for trying to see a Senator
> http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/09/3711/

--- PJ or Brian <ravenwaverider@yahoo.com>

> I would like to tell you how I feel about the abuse of power by
> Sen. Clinton!

> We are sick as hell of her bull crap!  She can have a social worker
> in every home starting with hers!!! You keep the communist to you're
> state!  Our Sen.'s in California are the ugliest women I have ever
> seen, and they did vote for the Patriot act like Clinton also, which
> makes them all IMPEACHABLE! ....

4. Your FEEDBACK - parent killer fit parent?
Response to: http://www.AKidsRight.Org/archive/archive2007/0039.html

--- "B. A. Townley" <Townley@cox.net>

> Well, because you kill your husband does not mean you would harm the
> children. I can see that paternal grandparents might have a problem
> with restored custody. Someday that woman is going to have to
> explain why she killed daddy.

I agree with your thoughts.

--- Sean Heusdens <projectjeremyone@yahoo.com>

> Wow I would think this person mood not so stable in the past. How
> trusted to raise kids?

We had a pretty clear standard at
http://www.AKidsRight.Org/approach.htm -- not sure how you measure a
stable mood.  It seems we are getting more into 'prediction' than
actual behavior?  That is part of the big problem with the system we
have now?

--- "Jeffrey P. Erbs" <jperbs@charter.net>

> I am Jeff Erbs from Wisconsin.  My states laws say that you lose the
> rights to your children if you kill the other parent.  I think this
> is just because if you can or have killed anyone, especially the
> other parent, why wouldn't you also not have any qualms about
> killing your children??  Ms Winkler has quite a few kinks in her
> personality as evidenced by her not only gunning down her husband,
> but also by her actions of patiently, for 20 minutes, watching
> Mr. Winkler die.  That " our " justice system only awarded her 67
> days of incarceration and now sees fit to put her back with the
> children is a great testimonial to how far gone our justice system,
> our country really is.  Especially in light of that the children are
> with their loving, caring grandparents, who quite obviously, do love
> and care for these children and their lives.

I do agree with you that the sentence she was given seemed bizarre for
such an offense, but -- after you have paid your debt?  I don't think
statistics would support you about someone who committed murder would
also kill their kids, but -- we also don't base justice on
statistics. If we save we have a great Civil Right to be parents,
sounds like you should need real proof and have some protections?

  -- Jeff replies

> I couldn't disagree with you more!!!  What kind of a person could
> kill another, especially if it is their children's Father??  We are
> talking about a wacko that needs very careful observation and
> therapy before being returned, if ever, to society.

--- "Oom Yaaqub" <oomyaaqub@msn.com>

> I don't think any one is saying that these rights are
> absolute. Obviously there are people who shouldn't be allowed near
> their kids because they are just plain dangerous. A parent who is
> already a convicted felon because she "just snapped" and murdered
> the other parent certainly qualifies. How do we know she won't "just
> snap" again? The key is that the presumption of fitness is a
> REBUTTABLE presumption. We should make reasonable efforts to keep
> parents and kids together, but not ridiculous efforts. I don't think
> anyone is really cured of homicidal impulses by a mere 7 months in a
> mental hospital, and I don't think most juries would think so
> either.

... We have a GREAT Civil Right to be parent, like you say, it is not
absolute, but -- real protection of that right requires proof, not
just the law of averages?  I don't think statistics would show that
even a 'majority' of spouse murderers also kill their kids; on the
other hand let's assume it's true that 90% of black teens picked up by
police for violent crimes are guilty -- do we forgo the formality of
requiring real proof with such strong statistics?

  -- Oom replies

> But in case like this, where the kids were in the home when the
> homicide took place, and were then further endangered by being taken
> on the lam by the killer, isn't that a pretty clear example of
> extreme abuse in itself? I didn't say anything about AUTOMATIC
> termination, mind you, but then, this was never a CPS case to begin
> with. It's just a custody matter. Don't you think that at the very
> least, kids in such extreme circumstances should have the right to
> be heard about their own wishes? I know that if my mother had killed
> my father I wouldn't have wanted to have anything to do with her.

--- "ANDREA ALBRIGHT" <txgalinwny@msn.com>

> I completely understand how you feel regarding the Winkler case and
> others like it.  My name is Andrea, I am the second wife to my
> husband Dennis.  We are currently in court fighting to get his
> rights back to see his daughter. We have been at this since March of
> 2005 and still nothing. We live in Buffalo NY and the Erie County
> Family Court system is failing us too. All I can tell you is that my
> husband's ex wife has three children from three different men and
> when she divorces them and soon after uses the children as leverage.
> The first child who now is 23 was given to his grandmother. The
> second child, a daughter, was kept from her father. 

> He filed petitions with Erie County Family Court and was given his
> visitation rights back. Yet, she filled her daughter with lies about
> her father. That her daughter refused to see him. When he remarried
> she told her daughter "Your father doesn't love you anymore, see his
> wife is more important." That daughter is now 18. She had gotten to
> the point that she wanted to see her father and she started sneaking
> around to call or see him. When her mother found out, she proceeded
> to fight with her. If she went to a friends home her mother called
> the police and told them she had run away. 

> Ultimately, the mother's boyfriend couldn't stand the teenagers
> mouth and they put her in a girls home. After 90 days of counseling
> they returned to court. The court asked the mother if she wanted her
> daughter back home, she had been rehabilitated. Her statement in
> court was "I will not take back that little thieving bitch!" The
> daughter ended up in foster care and was adopted two years ago. We
> have a very close relationship with both of my husbands
> stepchildren.  Today, my husbands daughter who just turned 13 is
> going through the exact same thing. But the court has yet to hear
> about the other two children and the other ex husband. GO FIGURE? 
> Our lawyer, the Law Guardian and the court appointed counselor all
> know about the other children and ex husband. But no one has told
> the judge.  We will be back in court on Oct 23, 2007 and I could
> almost promise you this will be the last time. We were in court in
> July and Aug and the mother did not show. The court did nothing. We
> ended up paying over $700 for just showing up. She has a court
> appointed and we have a paid lawyer. 

> We are willing to do everything we can just to have visitation with
> my stepdaughter. She is a wonderful young lady. This past Friday we
> received a letter from our lawyer stating "At some point you may
> want to consider pulling the plug on this case." "Over the past 18
> months your relationship with your daughter has gotten considerably
> worse." And my husband has only seen his daughter in the past 18
> months in counseling sessions (three to be exact) We had a law
> Guardian in 2005 that told the referee that this was Parental
> Alienation and on that day the first petition was dropped.  Where do
> we go? What do we do? How do I help keep my husbands spirits up? How
> do I keep my family together? My stepdaughters birthday was at the
> end of August and we sent her cards and gifts. She returned all of
> them with a note to her father that began with "Dear Idiot," I can
> honestly tell you that the letter was written by her mother except
> for the last 1/2 page, The handwriting changed.  No one will
> listen. We are willing to sell everything and to work our skin off
> our bones to keep this case in court. But now we have our lawyer
> dangling the possibility of dropping child support to get us to drop
> the case. We don't mind paying the child support or the medical
> insurance. But no one wants to listen. I wrote Senator Schumacher? 
> Nothing. I do not know who to write. I belong to so many on line
> groups for Parental alienation and I keep reading books and articles
> till I am sick. You are right. If the laws do not get changed we
> will never see our children. Mothers or Fathers, stepmothers or
> stepfathers. Our judge was recently quoted in an article that
> Fathers are getting more rights, but he hasn't proven that to us.

> I encourage you to keep fighting for your rights. We will keep you
> in our thoughts and prayers and do the same for us.

--  Best regards!
                                       John Murtari
Coordinator                            AKidsRight.Org
jmurtari@AKidsRight.Org                "A Kid's Right to BOTH parents"
Toll Free (877) 635-1968(x-211)        http://www.AKidsRight.Org/
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